My Gender Identity is Overalls With Zoe Bean

Today’s guest is Zoë Bean, tattooer, artist, and general curator of beautiful oddities in South Orange, New Jersey. She co-owns Keepsake Studios and Keepsake Collectables with her partner, Sweetie, blending tattoos, antiques, and pressed botanicals into something entirely her own. She’s also the artist behind my alligator-and-bird back piece. We talk about our Baba Yaga vibes, the pros and cons of overalls, the liminal space of pain, and ask the question, what exactly is girl cold.

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Transcript

Interview

Julia 1:17

Are you haunted by the thoughts that show up at 3 a.m.? Well, you're in good company because this is where we follow them. It's also where science meets ritual, humor meets reckoning, and aging and identity are viewed as evolution. Candles optional. Curiosity required. Ghosts, welcome. I'm your host, Julia Granacki, and this is Agecraft After Dark. Welcome everyone. Ladies, gentlemen, theys and thems. Full disclosure, I'm recording this at 5 a.m. on a Saturday because my bed is currently occupied by a husband and a small dog who snore so in sync, I genuinely can't tell which is which. And another dog who rolls like an alligator auditioning for the Discovery Channel. So here we are, which feels appropriate for this first episode. If you're listening to this in your circling the drain feed, you might be wondering what exactly just showed up in your queue and whether you should be concerned. That's fair. Stay with me. Ellie and I had a really good run. We talked about menopause, midlife hormones, all the things no one tells you until you're already sweating through them at 2 a.m. It was smart, it was necessary, and honestly, it was a lot of fun. And I feel incredibly lucky we got to do it together. But eventually it started to feel like we were circling something bigger, something harder to name. The show we loved started to feel less like conversation and more like work. And if you know anything about us at all, you know that is not our vibe. So we closed that chapter thoughtfully and lovingly. And now it's just me, which feels both right and genuinely terrifying. But trust me, Ellie is absolutely still here in spirit, in voice, in the part of my brain that says, maybe don't say that, immediately followed by me saying it anyway, because, you know, some things do not change. But this needed to be a solo project. So here I am. Now, as many of you know, I'm a board certified health coach and Pilates instructor. And like circling the drain, my work has focused on women navigating perimenopause and menopause. And that still matters to me deeply. But something in my work has been shifting. There are some questions that have been getting louder and bigger and more expansive and less binary. I found myself standing on the precipice of turning 50, knowing deep in my being that something needed to change. And somewhere in the middle of all that, I also became somewhat unexpectedly a witch. Which, to be clear, was not on my midlife bingo card. I mean, I had joint pain, I had, you know, like new hobbies, maybe like learning how to play piano. Witchcraft was not on there. Now, before you roll your eyes or press stop, let me ask you. Have you ever thrown a penny in a fountain and made a witch? Do you keep a journal where you log your goals, hopes, and dreams? Have you ever known something so deeply in your gut that ignoring it felt like a terrible idea or even dangerous? That's magic. That's a ritual. That's intuition. Congratulations. You've been doing witchcraft this whole time and you didn't even have to get a broom. At its core, witchcraft is a practice of paying attention to nature, to cycles, to yourself. It's about letting go of what no longer serves you, setting intentions, and taking aligned action. Sometimes with the moon and sometimes with a very organized to-do list and a solid playlist. If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then manifestation is where ritual meets intention. And honestly, a lot of it is just well-structured goal setting with a candle or two. Now, what can you expect here? There will be health, there will be science, and there will be absolutely some magic and a little high strangeness as a treat. But also those 3 a.m. thoughts. Not the nostalgic ones. The ones that won't leave you alone. The ones that scrape at the back of your brain, the ones that go, hey, we need to talk. Those are the thoughts we're here for. This is Agecraft After Dark, a podcast about aging, identity, reinvention, and the strange liminal space between who you've been and who you're becoming. The ghosts here aren't jump scares, although sometimes they are. They're mostly inherited patterns, outgrown selves, and memories with opinions. And we meet them with curiosity instead of judgment. Because there's no final version of you waiting on the other side, no neat box, and no arrival point. Just the messy, never-finished, occasionally unhinged, and sometimes exhilarating work of figuring out who the hell you are now. If you've stuck with me this far, I thank you. Welcome to the circle. I'm really glad you're here. Now let's get into the show. Today's guest is Zoe Bean, a tattooer and artist based in South Orange, New Jersey. She loves flowers, growing them, drawing them, and pressing them. With her partner, Sweetie, she co-owns Keepsak Studios, a private tattoo space, and Keepsak Collectibles, where they sell reimagined Victorian frames filled with rare objects and pressed botanicals. Zoe is a mother, a baker, an antique collector, and an obsessive ice cream maker. And she's also a dear friend and the artist behind my amazing alligator and bird back piece. On today's episode, we discuss overalls, the liminal space and pain, and ask the important question: what exactly is Girl Cold?

Zoe 7:21

Hello. It's so good to have you. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad to be here.

Julia 7:27

So we're gonna get started with you simply stating your name, your pronouns, your age, and then what's keeping you up at night?

Zoe 7:37

Okay, I'm Zoe Bean. Uh my pronouns are she, her. I am 53 years old, and I mean the world has been keeping me up at night. I've been pretty obsessed with the Epstein files as much as I don't want to be. I've been obsessed with this idea that the world is being controlled by men who prefer children over like fully grown women. And this makes me want to like become the witch of the woods. Like it makes me want to like lean into being the Baba Yaga even more. Yeah, I've just been like rage, rage obsessing a little bit at night, unfortunately.

Julia 8:25

Yeah, that's not that's not that's not gonna help you sleep.

Zoe 8:28

No, it definitely doesn't.

Julia 8:29

Yeah, it definitely doesn't. I really like I definitely relate to that very deeply. You know, I'm Eastern European, so I fully align, uh, feel called to the Baba Yaga. So I'm feeling very similar. I'm feeling like I definitely want to gather with my community in the woods and light a giant fire. And I don't know, maybe burn something in effigy. I'm just saying. Maybe how with the moon, maybe I'm not a baneful witch type of person, but you know, dark magic isn't far from my mind these days with the way that things are going, but I I really relate to that.

Zoe 9:04

It's um it's very liberating though, also, like it's a very freeing kind of anger because it's like I no longer am interested in like appeasing these ideas, like these, like I'm I'm much more into leaning into my old lady power.

Julia 9:22

Yes, like that crone power, it's righteous. Yes, exactly. It is and it's freeing. Agreed, agreed. I have a very tough question for you. Or actually an invitation for you. Tell me about your obsession with overalls, Zoe.

Zoe 9:38

I have been obsessed with overalls for most of my life. It's not just specifically overalls, it's one piece clothing. So I feel like a lot of women, I have struggled with the ideas about what I'm supposed to look like, especially as I get older, like the how to dress like a woman my age conversation, which is a conversation I've had, like with my mother specifically. Like my mother has said things to me like, at what point do we feel like we are too old to wear overalls?

Julia 10:10

The royal way.

Zoe 10:11

Yes. And I think the answer to that is never. I think we're never too old to wear whatever we want to wear. But I think as someone who struggled to figure out like where where I fit in like presenting as a woman, like dresses never felt like the thing to me. And so I think just like one piece clothing where I can put on one item of clothing and be fully dressed is very appealing to me. And then also, like, I'm a I work in messy ways, and so all my clothes have like paint splatter on them and ink splatter on them. So it just felt like work wear was a very easy go-to.

Julia 10:51

Yeah, I fully support and relate to that. And we've we actually have had this conversation previously while you were tattooing me. And I always think like one piece clothing seems like a great idea, and in theory, I really think it is. And I certainly have some, I have a few pairs of overalls. I have like like a coverall that I love that's like covered in snakes that I absolutely love. And it's all amazing until I have to go to the bathroom.

Zoe 11:13

Oh, a thousand percent.

Julia 11:14

Yeah, and and like at home it's fine, but I made the mistake of wearing overalls on a plane recently. That's tough.

Zoe 11:22

Like, not I've been there.

Julia 11:24

That's tough. Yeah, yeah.

Zoe 11:26

I mean, it's that or it's like if I'm out in the world and it's really cold out, so I'm wearing a lot of layers over my overalls, and then I have to go to the bathroom, then you realize like just how many things you have to take off in order to use the bathroom, and that's not always the most fun. Yeah, but it's a sacrifice I feel comfortable with in my in my day-to-day. I mean, most of the time I'm at the studio, and so I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. Right. So it's fine.

Julia 11:54

It's there's the stakes are low.

Zoe 11:56

The stakes are low, exactly. The floor is clean, and the floor is clean, yes, very clean. It's the clean the cleanest place in the world.

Julia 12:04

Yeah, yeah. The the bathroom on the plane was not the same, and that's my idea.

Zoe 12:08

The bathroom on the plane is definitely not somewhere you want to be dealing with overalls.

Julia 12:12

Totally. You you heard it here first, listeners. Be aware of that when you're in public in overalls or coveralls, yeah, just knowing where those things are gonna go when you have to use the bathroom. Just be aware. Something make decisions based on that.

Zoe 12:24

I mean, I think like so overalls are like part of my gender identity, I like to say. Like my gender identity is overalls.

Julia 12:30

What about tattooing? Uh, you know, that's what you do for a living. It is, it is. You know, tattooing in American culture is usually framed as something aesthetic, right? Which is fine. I always say to my friend, you know, who who like me is appropriate has reached 50 or approaching 50, and suddenly we're tattooing all over and we were like, What why are we collecting these grown-up stickers? How did this happen? But what I always come back to is how it feels deeply ritualistic, you know, to me. And it's certainly rooted in ancestral practices, right? So as an artist, how is it for you? What's actually happening in that space when the needle hits the skin?

Zoe 13:11

Oh wow, that is, I mean, this is like my favorite thing to talk about. I love tattooing as ritual, it does feel deeply impactful. And when it when it works, it can be a really transformative experience, both for the person getting tattooed and for me. I think like, you know, I came up in tattooing at a time where there weren't that many women tattooing. And so for the first maybe 10 or 15 years that I was getting tattooed, I was only tattooed by men. And it was a very different kind of experience. Like I did not experience that kind of connection with the person tattooing me that I try to cultivate with my clients. I think there was this like the attitude was like, Oh, you're so lucky to be getting tattooed by me. I'm such a rock star, and look at you, you get to be here and how lucky you are. And I feel like quite the opposite. And I think that I think that the energy that you put into something like this is very much a part of it. So, you know, my intention, my energy affects not only the way the tattoo looks, but what it feels like for the person who's wearing it. And I am very mindful of that, like creating an environment where it feels safe and you feel comfortable getting tattooed so that you can have this transformative experience. Because I don't think those experiences happen when you're nervous, when you're you know uneasy about what's happening. But I do think, I mean, I think there's nothing more empowering than getting to decide what your body looks like and how to adorn yourself.

Julia 14:56

I I agree. And obviously, having been someone that's tattooed by you, I mean, I I can say that all of these things, you know, definitely are true. And I think for me, approaching 50, it felt like some rite of passage that I needed to do. And I we kind of talked about this previously because we met through a book club, you know, a while ago. I don't know, like over a year ago, maybe two years ago. I don't totally remember. No, it was almost four years ago.

Zoe 15:25

No, it was because I was still, yeah, because I still had the studio in the city. I wasn't, I didn't move out here until like two and a half years ago. So it was no sense of time. I know time is an illusion. It is, it's it's an illusion. It doesn't mean anything.

Julia 15:42

Oh my god, that's so crazy. Okay, so everybody, it was like four years ago, but that's fine. It was four years ago. I mean, it's fine.

Zoe 15:48

Like, but you know, I was I only know things by how like where I was working. That's like my mark and how old my kid is.

Julia 15:56

That that makes sense. I I usually go by like what my hair is doing, what color it is, and if I had bangs, that's I'm like, did I have bangs? Was my hair blonde?

Zoe 16:04

You know, that's because I've been very my hair's been very consistent for the last like 20 years, and so that doesn't help me at all. It's not gonna work, yeah.

Julia 16:12

But you got your thing, you figured it out. I'm I'm working with mine. It's not going well, clearly, because if there were, I remember. Oh, I disagree. I disagree. All right, well, four years ago, I you know, I said to you, I was kind of like, you know, you're I need a new tattoo, like you're you're yeah, I'm gonna have you do it. You're like, you're the person I need. I could I knew when I met you, I was like, she's she's she's gonna do the tattoo. And I just didn't know what it was gonna be. And I think, and again, you and I have we've talked about this before, but I was waiting for it to come to me. Like I was waiting to be called to whatever, like it was gonna look like whatever it was gonna be.

Zoe 16:45

And I think that's right, it does present itself. Like if you're open to it, it it really does.

Julia 16:51

Yeah. Because that's what happened. I it just suddenly it was like, this is what I'm gonna do. This is what I'm gonna get. This is who is gonna do it. And I didn't hesitate. There was no confusion, like I just was all in, and then I had a back piece.

Zoe 17:06

You know, well, you came in hot. You're like, okay, here it is. I mean, and I I love working on that tattoo with you. I feel really proud of the work we did together, and I think like it's such a badass, like it's beautiful, but it's also really tough and strong. And it's I love that tattoo, it's amazing.

Julia 17:25

Me too. I was so glad you did it.

Zoe 17:26

And I hope the pictures of you on your birthday in the backless dress like made my life like that. Made me so happy. Like you're such a babe, and you were like, you looked so like in your body, and like that's the best thing ever.

Julia 17:42

Agreed. I and I felt that way. Like, I felt that way. That was the goal. So, yeah, this is it was all part of it again. Like, just the ritual, it was all part of like that, the making of that for sure. I would say like aging certainly has something to do with appearance and our feeling in our body. So, how has aging yours and your clients influenced or even changed your approach?

Zoe 18:04

Well, so God, I can answer this in a few different ways. So, when I first started tattooing, like shortly after I started tattooing, there definitely started being more and more women in tattooing. And there started being a lot of tattoo magazines, and then Instagram started, and there started being Instagrams devoted to tattooing, and they would showcase tattoos made by male tattooers, and then they would showcase female tattooers themselves very scantily clad. So it would be like, I mean, my husband called one of the magazines tats on tits, because it was like naked girls or like very close to naked girls who were heavily tattooed, and it would be like, Oh, this is Jennifer, and she's also a tattoo artist, but it wasn't about the work that she made, it was about here she is, this like young attractive woman, and that always felt wrong to me. I always felt interested in the aspect of tattooing that was helping people to feel comfortable in the skin that they're in, yeah, right. And like bodies come in all shapes and sizes, and every tattoos are for everybody, that is something that I have always believed, and so I think as I've gotten older and I've gotten more comfortable in my own skin, it's easier for me to help other people see that. I've had so many consultations with women where they say things like, I want to get this tattoo, but I need to lose the last 15 or 20 pounds before I do it. And it's like, no, you absolutely do not. Like you're in your ideal body right now. This moment is the moment where your body is doing everything you're asking it to, and sometimes adorning your body in this way helps you love the body that you're in. Like, yeah, you know, I know it has for me for sure. Um, and I feel like my clients are getting older as I'm getting older. I have fewer 19, 20-year-olds who are seeking me out, they don't want to have these kinds of conversations, and that's okay, right? Like, yeah, it is, it's totally okay. I mean, I love that the studio has now become a place where like we're talking about menopause a lot in there. And like, it's if you would have told me that I would have a tattoo shop where there would be like two women tattooing and two female clients, and there would be like a room conversation about like menopause symptoms and what hormone replacement everybody was on, I would not have believed it, but it's amazing, it's wonderful.

Julia 20:45

Yeah, that's the tattoo um studio that I want to hang out in. Yeah, me too. That's where I belong, right? Yeah, me too, for sure. You know, to your point, I think, you know, tattooing has long since been a boys' club, right? When the industry itself is male-dominated, how does that affect who feels safe getting tattooed and how do you consciously work against that dynamic?

Zoe 21:10

Well, I mean, for me, I opened my own shop. Um so I had I had always worked for men, always worked in shops that were owned by men. I had worked primarily with men, and even worked in some shops where there were female tattooers, but the shop was still owned by men, and it was very male-dominated space. And I worked in one shop where the owner kept telling me I was complaining that it was cold in the shop. Like, you know, clients are taking off their clothes, and they were well, I had a client who was shivering, and the owner told me that we were both girl cold, that it wasn't actually cold in the shop, that we were girl cold. And I was like, like, like, what does that even mean? That doesn't mean anything. Like, I have a client here in the building who I'm trying to tattoo and they're uncomfortable, and I am trying to make them more comfortable in the space. Like, how is that not everybody's goal? But it, I mean, it got to a place where I have a lot of try trans clients, I have a lot of queer clients, and the shop just wasn't a safe place for those clients, and I couldn't continue to invite people to the shop if I couldn't control the experience that they were going to have. So I I partnered with another tattoo, queer, non-binary femme, and we opened a space that at the time was felt very groundbreaking because it was a very soft place. Like it was a very welcoming place. The idea was that we put all of our beliefs on the door. So we had a ground floor space and it said, no racism, no homophobia, no transphobia, no body shaming. Like we don't if none of this this doesn't resonate with you, we don't want you here. Don't come in. Right? Like this is a safe space. And if it's not for you, that's fine, because there are so many spaces that are. Right. But and it what ended up happening was so amazing because we thought we were creating this for other people. But really, we were creating this for ourselves. Like we had never, either of us had never worked in a space that felt like that. And like it felt good to walk in the door. Like it felt like I felt excited to go there every day. And I was excited to like pour myself into that space because it felt so safe.

Julia 23:35

Which is how it should be. I mean, that's how we should all honestly, all of us should feel that way when we go to work.

Zoe 23:42

Yes, but I don't think that that's most people's experience. And I think it's definitely still not most people's experience going into tattoo shops. You know, you're making yourself very vulnerable, and there's still this element of like weird intimidation. And I want, you know, my queer family to feel safe and know that they're gonna be like respected and protected in that space. You know, when I closed the studio in Brooklyn and my husband and I opened the studio in New Jersey, it was really important to me that we kept that feeling. Like even though he is a cis man in the space, he's I really feel like he might be the only good one. But like he really, he really understands that that feeling that we're going for, and he too is very much about making people feel comfortable. So it isn't just this idea that you have to be a woman to create safe spaces, like it, it those spaces can exist even with men. It's possible.

Julia 24:45

Your point about making it a welcoming environment, especially for queer people, you know, gender expansive type of people, you know, how does gender identity show up in your work, either in who walks through your door, what people ask for, or in what they're trying to reclaim or reject through tattooing?

Zoe 25:06

I mean, I think I think this is true for everyone, no matter what your gender identity is. But I think for trans folks specifically, when you are trying to realize the body that feels like it belongs to you. And I think on some level, we are all trying to do that all the time. But I think transness kind of puts that at the forefront in a way where trans people have the ability to really examine and explore what that looks like. What does that feel like? What is the body that I want to live in? What does it look like? And so tattooing can be a huge part of helping realize that body, that feeling. So I do I've done a lot of tattoos on people post-top surgery, which like I love that work so much. It feels like such an incredible honor to be asked to do that. And there's so much trust involved, can be about like, I want my shoulders to feel more square. Like, can we design something that makes my chest feel broader? Have to create a safe place for someone to feel comfortable even having that conversation with you. So they have to know that it's okay to come in. And I think that I'm really mindful about my the way that I project myself to the world is hopefully very hit you over the head with like, I'm the safe mom to come talk to. Like, I'm I'm the mom that like is gonna love you and tell you how great you are and you know, cheer you on as you go through this process.

Julia 26:46

I think that the the world is better with you in it. I think we need more, you're welcome. We need more tattoo artists like you to create these kinds of spaces so that people do feel safe because it can be transformative, it can be extremely empowering, and it can be a pathway to feeling more in your body instead of feeling very othered.

Zoe 27:08

Feels like such a such an incredible honor to be a part of. And and tattooing has shifted. Like there are so many young queer people tattooing now. Like that was not a thing when I was coming up, and it's exciting to see tattoos who are trans, who are queer, like creating their own spaces. So I'm definitely not the only one anymore, which is really wonderful. Like, yeah, for sure.

Julia 27:33

How about aging bodies and reclaiming visibility?

Zoe 27:36

I have so I have a client who is in her 70s, and she is a queer woman, and we recently tattooed her neck, and she like that was not the first tattoo we did together. I had been tattooing her for a number of years before that, but she said shortly after the beginning of this presidency, she said, I want to look like a queer woman from a distance, and I mean, who knows even what that means? Right, like just like what what does queerness look like? It's so personal and varied. But for her, she wanted something on her neck that like even when she was wearing like a winter coat, you would be able to see that she was this like badass. And we I mean we put a flower on her neck, it's very pretty. But it is super badass for this 70-year-old woman to tattoo her neck, like there's something really amazing about seeing older bodies, like, because I think the way that tattooing has been kind of marketed, especially over the last like social media age, is that you know, young, cute, thin, white bodies get tattooed. And the reality is that tattooing is so much more diverse than that, both in the bodies that are getting tattooed and the people who are doing the tattoos. But I think that those, like all things, those are still not the bodies that we're seeing. Like when you see pictures of tattoos on the internet, you're seeing thin, white, young people with tattoos. And so I think seeing a person in the world 70 years old and has her neck tattooed and she's moving through the world like the badass that she is, like like part of visibility. As women, especially as we get older, we tend to disappear like from public eye, from oh yeah, like advertising, like they're not there's not a lot of images of women who are aging, especially women who are aging in a more not plastic way, right? So, like if you're not going down the road, fillers and Botox and you know, and there's no judgment, like I think everyone should do what works for them, but if you're not doing that, the chances that you're gonna see a face that looks like your face in advertising on TV and movies is getting slimmer and slimmer. And so I think like drawing attention to yourself in that way, being bold in that way is is really like a badass thing to do. It's a form of resistance, you know. It's like I'm not gonna just disappear.

Julia 30:25

Yeah, I really feel like visibility, especially as we age, is one of the greatest forms of activism and resistance, in my view. And I mean, I certainly feel that I felt that way approaching 50, that, you know, again, played very much into why I got that tattoo. As I age, I'm definitely not interested in fading into the background, but I feel it's susceptible, just like everyone else, you know, to the culture, to our patriarchal ideas that, you know, we're just ingrained with and we can't avoid. And sometimes it gets a little confusing when you're trying to decide does the culture want me to look this way, or do I want me to look this way, for example?

Zoe 31:03

And it is, it's hard to land on that sometimes. Like I definitely struggle with that still, and I think that's part of like getting tattoos that are visible in places that people are surprised, like, you know, having my neck tattooed. Every time I go to a parent teacher conference with a new year, a new teacher, I watch the teachers see my tattoos and like react to them. And it is it's it's an interesting thing. I mean, I like and I don't think it's necessarily negative, but there's definitely like a little bit of like the like the head tilt. I would rather them notice me in that way than be like, oh, look at this, you know, aging woman. I don't know. I it's just it's an interesting like difference in the way that I see myself.

Julia 31:49

Just maybe think of the story you told me about the the young woman at the DMV. Oh, like that, right?

Zoe 31:55

It was at the it was at the dispensary. Oh, a dispensary! I was at a dispensary. I was at a dispensary, and like I'm not someone who marijuana and I are not friends. I have discovered in my older years that it is not good for me. But we got a new dispensary in our community, and I was like, Oh, I want to go in and check it out. And I went up to the counter, and the woman behind the counter understandably was very, very high, but she said to me, Oh wow, I always wonder how my tattoos are gonna look when I get old, and when I see you, I feel like it's gonna be okay. And I and I realized, like, in her head, that must have sounded like a compliment. Like she thought she was saying something nice to me. Like, I don't think she was trying to be a dick.

Julia 32:41

Right, right.

Zoe 32:42

But I definitely felt like I had been kicked in the stomach a little bit, and and of course, I like left there and told my husband, and he thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard. But it is, I am being seen. I mean, I worked at tattoo convention for the first time in a very long time. That's right. And I had a young tattooer come up to me and say, She's like, Wow, I can't believe you're here. She's like, When I got Instagram in junior high, you were the first tattooer I followed. And now she is a tattoo, she's in her 20s, like tattooing. And I was like, Oh my god. I'm like, I am the Baba Yaga. I'm like a hundred. And like people are like, Wow, I can't believe you're still out in the world doing stuff doing this stuff. Like, and I'm like, I don't know how to break it to you kids. There's no retirement in this. Like, I'm gonna do this till I die. Yeah, yeah.

Julia 33:36

Yeah, and I think I feel like in that moment it's that that knee-jerk reaction where you're a little bit like, oh, what the fuck? And then you kind of have to take a step back and go, oh, okay, okay, okay. Like, I get I get what you're trying to say. I get what you're trying to say.

Zoe 33:47

You know, I'm trying, I'm trying to lean into this. Like for the first time I'm thinking about taking on an apprentice. And I've never considered, yeah, I've never considered teaching someone how to tattoo until now. And I've been tattooing for almost 20 years. And I think like there's that female like imposter syndrome thing of like, well, what do I know? Can I really teach someone how to do anything? But then I realized that like the people who are teaching people how to tattoo, the men, like they've you know, there are men who've been tattooing half as long as me and are not very good, and they're teaching like 10, 15, 20 people how to tattoo. Like, I like the idea of mentoring someone and actually mentoring them. Yeah. Like really teaching them, like not just how to tattoo, but like, do you have a IRA? Do you have like bank accounts? How do you handle your taxes? Because like nobody teaches you how to do this stuff when you have a job that's a like not a regular kind of job.

Julia 34:48

Yeah. Also, no one's really talking about like the kind of what kind of environment do you want to work in? How do you want to create a good environment for your clients? Like, we need more of conversations, who are you in this world, and what do you want to bring into this world?

Zoe 35:03

But like, how are you creating community with what you do? Um, yeah. So I'm thinking I'm thinking about it.

Julia 35:10

Oh, well, I wish you the best of luck with that, Zoe. Only because we've had previous conversations, and I'm like, okay, I like this for you though. I I mean, I think I think anybody who would work with you would benefit from they drive me crazy and will they drive you crazy? That is the question. That is the question. I'll be curious to see. I'll be curious to see. Yeah, me too. But we talked a lot about many, many different things when you were tattooing me, because when you're sitting together for many hours and you are in excruciating pain, you know, you you've gotta you've gotta keep talking. Sometimes you don't talk, sometimes you'll just talk about whatever. Anything. Seem to remember we started getting into a whole conversation kind of about Gen X and like punk rock sort of history. And you know, we both came up around the same time and definitely the same musical tastes and kind of like music that shaped us, I think, in a lot of ways. What did punk rock give you early on that still shapes how you move through feminism, art, and aging now?

Zoe 36:08

Oh man, I mean, I would say less punk rock and more like Riot Girl. Yeah, yeah. Like Kathleen Hanna, I feel like is my guru of all things feminism. I think just being in those like really female spaces. So, like, I don't know if you ever saw Bikini Kill when they were playing out. Kathleen Hanna used to call girls to the front because punk spaces weren't necessarily safe for women, and especially like women going to the stage, like you would get physically injured being near the stage. And so she would get on stage and like push all the boys back and call the women to the front, and like girls to the front had really become like a mantra for me. Yes, you know, I think that like those spaces like showed me that you can be super tough and feminine, and it's okay. Like, I think there was this punk rock feeling that you had to be like hard all the time, like your edges had to be really hard and you couldn't be feminine. And like when I started tattooing, the big criticism that I got from the guys I worked with was you're too nice. Like that I can't tell you how many times I heard you're too nice, you're too nice to your clients, you're too nice to the people you work with, like you bake cookies and bring them into the shop. Like, who do you who are you trying to be? How dare you? What's your yeah, like what's your ulterior motive? Like, why are you doing this? And and I think like Riot Girl was the first kind of like like it was the foundation for me of like you can be punk rock and hard, but you can also be feminine and soft and still really care. Like it's okay to care. And you know, I think like like that it's okay to care about things that are important that affect your community.

Julia 38:03

Yeah. I feel like it took me a really long time to figure that out.

Zoe 38:07

It took me a while too. I feel like it it wasn't, it didn't necessarily happen in the moment, it was the foundation. And then like as I got older, I came back to it.

Julia 38:16

Yeah, I mean, I think especially like like as Gen X coming up through that era, there was a lot of, you know, I felt like I had, you know, I shaved my head at one point. I feel like I had to go in like the opposite direction of being, of looking feminine, right? I needed to do the to be the opposite. Also, I just wanted to kind of disappear. I didn't want to be noticed for my looks. I didn't want people giving me that kind of attention. You know, there was a lot of that struggle. And the strange thing is, especially now in my 50s, like I want to wear lipstick, like I wear all the makeup. I'm like putting on dresses, I'm like doing stuff I never did before for some reason.

Zoe 38:52

I yeah, but feminism really the true feminism is being able to express yourself in whatever way feels authentic to you. Right. So like if wearing a dress feels authentic to you, then you should be able to do that and you should have the same level of safety and autonomy that you would have if you were wearing, like, you know, leather pants and like a dog collar. Because I know that's another look that you go for from town. I rocket all the time. Yeah, the dog collars. I know.

Julia 39:22

Yeah, I do think it's the many stages, right? Of of growth and aging and the many identities that we wear and we shed as we continue through life. And there have been so many. I mean, it's like the hair colors, the again, like the length of my hair, the color of my hair, what I was wearing the most of, what I wasn't wearing the most of, the way I was sort of like shifting or identifying just in the world and the way I felt comfortable looking. And I feel more comfortable as myself and more me than I've ever had in my entire life at this point.

Zoe 39:50

I mean, that's the most amazing thing about getting older is like feeling like I think in my 50s, like for the first time, like I I like me. Like, and I'm okay with like I'm okay with how I look, I'm okay with who I am, like, and I feel like that took forever to get to that place. It took forever. So nice. And now I feel like um I quietly stalk Kathleen Hannah online, and that just reinforces like it helps remind me that you know all of those things can exist simultaneously, and that's okay.

Julia 40:27

Yeah, and giving like less, you know, fucks about what people think about what you're doing or the way or the way that you look also helps too. And I feel like I have a lot of or I should say I have very few fucks left to give. Yes. When it comes to that.

Zoe 40:40

I have zero.

Julia 40:41

I have zero fucks. Yeah.

Zoe 40:43

Like I care a lot about what I do, but I don't care a lot about I guess it depends on who it is. I don't care a lot about what men think in general. Same.

Julia 40:54

Yeah. Pick it, you get we're a little bit more discerning over the opinions that matter, I would say.

Zoe 40:58

Yes, yeah, definitely. For sure.

Julia 41:00

And I think that's a positive. I think that's growth. I think that's growth.

Zoe 41:03

Yes, I think so too. Yeah.

Julia 41:05

For sure. When someone is in the liminal space of pain when they're being tattooed, because I really think it is a liminal space. Like it is like nothing I've ever experienced. Maybe because you are willingly there on voluntary. Yeah. But it's like, you know, I feel like your defenses drop. I feel like time does not exist and it moves in a very strange way. You know, what do you feel like you're witnessing as an artist when someone's experienced, like at the height of that, you know?

Zoe 41:40

I mean, pain is incredibly revealing. So I think I think the combination of putting someone in pain and also touching them, right? So you're like laying hands on someone and you're hurting them. You it's very revealing. You see who people are very quickly. It pulls down a lot of the like masks that people put on. And I feel like I get to see people in a way that very few other people probably have seen them. It creates, you know, instant intimacy.

Julia 42:15

Yeah.

Zoe 42:16

And sometimes that's amazing, and sometimes it's less amazing, depending on who the person is. But I do think that the reminder that we're not made of glass, like that we are tougher than we thought we were, that we can endure more than we thought we could. And especially women, women are just so much tougher than men, like across the board. Like women are we exist in discomfort all the time.

Julia 42:46

Yeah.

Zoe 42:47

And so I think like it's a process, and you moving through that process can actually be a really powerful experience to have something hurt and voluntarily sit through it and get through it with a well and yes, and come back like you come back again and again, but also get through it with some grace. Yeah. And come out the other side feeling like, wow, I did that. Like I I did that, and that's really badass. Like it's tough, and I did it, and I'm like, and if you're happy with the results, then it's the best thing ever because you like did it and look at this incredible thing that you get to have because of it.

Julia 43:27

It's a good reminder of resilience. I and I think you even said to me, You were like, Well, just you, you know, I think when we were done like with my spine, which was really was not fun. It was like unhinged. I mean, unhinged kind of like I mean, like I think I left my body for like a few a few seconds or maybe even longer. But, you know, you had said something to me like, just think like when you're doing the next hard thing, you know, you're gonna think about this moment, and that hard thing is gonna be so easy compared to this moment. And I was like, Yes. Like that resonated. I was like, that that can help me sit through the rest of this. There are harder, there are harder and there are easier things, right? But uh some of those hard things out in life are actually not as hard as what I'm doing right now, you know. And you're okay.

Zoe 44:13

And you're okay, yeah. Right? Like you're like it hurts, but you're okay. I think like we have this idea that if something hurts us, it has to be detrimental in some big way. And often the things that hurt us are the things that kind of push us to the next version of ourselves. Yeah.

Julia 44:31

For me, I was like, oh, now I need more tattoos. So, you know. I mean, that's how we get you.

Zoe 44:36

One of us, one of us, one of us.

Julia 44:40

What's the most reliable tell that a client is about to tap out? And what was mine?

Spooky Story & Bibliomancy

Zoe 44:46

Oh, I don't know that everybody has the same tell. I think I think, you know, especially like for someone like you who are was getting a very large tattoo and we were working for like three or four hours at a time. Because I feel like when you say tap out, it makes it sound like the person is a wuss. But really, I find that usually if you're getting to a place where you're tapping out, it's because you're getting such a large tattoo that you you're sitting for long periods of time. Time. So I feel like when you were about to hit the wall, you got real fidgety. Like you sat like a rock through your whole tattoo. And then that last like 10 minutes or so, all of a sudden you were like moving around a lot. There was a lot of adjusting of hair. There's a lot of like agreed fidgeting. Because I think you were just like, get me the fuck out of here. Like I am. And I do think that most people they hit the wall at a certain point where it's like your adrenaline and your endorphins kind of take care of you for a while. And then you get to a certain point where you're like, I need this to stop right now. Like, and every time you wipe me, I want to just kill you. And I I mean, I feel like I hit that threshold about 20 minutes in. Like I now have no tolerance to get tattooed at all. And the worst, I sit horribly, and I do a lot of like fidgeting and adjusting my hair, looking at my phone, just like you know, shifting whatever part of my body is not getting tattooed. I'm like moving, like I move around a lot, I complain a lot. I'm terrible to tattoo.

Julia 46:23

It's so funny.

Zoe 46:24

But I feel like most people surprise themselves with how okay they are. Most people do. Yeah, I believe that. It's always like the big tough guys that pee their pants and pass out.

Julia 46:37

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, I think it's no shock that I think women probably have more tolerance and are probably gonna sit better.

Zoe 46:43

They do.

Julia 46:43

Yeah.

Zoe 46:44

And they're also the ones who are like, oh my God, I'm I'm sorry, I must smell really bad. I'm sweating so much. And it's like, no, you don't. Or it's like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm moving around a lot. It's like, no, you're not. Like the people who are concerned about it are never the problem. 

Julia 46:58

Yeah, yeah. Self-awareness. Look at that. Yeah, it's amazing. Oh my goodness. So everyone in Agecraft After Dark has to tell a spooky story, Zoe. It can be a literal haunting, but it doesn't have to be. We're just as interested in the high strange moments of Kismet, eerie coincidences, or that one time you followed a gut feeling and it absolutely saved your ass. So what spooky tale do you have for us today?

Zoe 47:24

I mean, I have a lot of these. When we first moved into our house, my kiddo was like two, three, and he would talk to corners of the room, and I would ask him who he was talking to, and he would say, Oh, I'm talking to the guy in the corner, and there was nobody there. And it like made all the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Because you know, like little, little kids, they have no guards, like they're just open, and so I think they see stuff that maybe we don't see. I don't know.

Julia 47:58

I kids and animals seeing things that aren't there scares me more than anything on this planet.

Zoe 48:04

It was it was so scary that against the wishes of my husband, who definitely does not believe in this stuff, I had someone come to the house to clear our house. I have a client who does that, and she came and we started in the attic, and she opened all the windows in the house, and she did a whole like from top to bottom, she cleared our house, and it did feel different in the house afterwards. And it might have been like the placebo of I was with her and watched her do it, but it made me feel better.

Julia 48:35

So yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah, yeah. There's some, yeah, again, like little kids like talking to things that aren't there. I mean, that's the always the thing you see in the movies that scares you the most. Am I right or am I wrong?

Zoe 48:47

Like it's oh, it was the scary my son was the scariest thing in the world, and he wasn't trying to be he wasn't scared, he was just reporting on what was he was experiencing, and that terrified me.

Julia 48:59

Yeah, and whether the cleansing not like it. Whether you believe in the cleansing or not, as long as it made you feel better and you felt like the energy shifted, that's really all that matters. And it did for sure. If you stopped talking to things that weren't there, that's that'd be great too.

Zoe 49:11

Yeah, yeah. And now anytime we move into a new space, she comes and blesses the space for us, and like we start off with like you know, fresh, good vibes. I can't I feel like it can't hurt. It can't hurt.

Julia 49:24

I mean, especially I think in so in New York and New Jersey, I'm I'm pretty sure this is true. You have to disclose whether your house is haunted. I'm not even kidding. Really? Yeah. So if you are an owner who has experienced some kind of like activity in the house that would fall into that category, and you you must disclose it. And if you don't, you can I think they you can like refute the bill of sale of the house. I'm not even joking.

Zoe 49:50

That's interesting. I mean, Dean Warwick lived in our house. Oh, that gym is haunted. So we are sure that Whitney Houston has been here. Like, and so whenever like I feel something in the house, I'm like, hey Whitney, how are you doing? Whitney. Thanks for visiting. What's going on? Thanks for stopping by. Yeah, exactly. Just like, thanks for coming. You're welcome here.

Julia 50:13

Yeah. But yeah. There could be uh worse spirits, yeah. For sure. Yeah, for sure. So we have reached the end of the interview, Zoe, and it's time for Between the Lines. This is our bibliomancy ritual, and bibliomancy is a form of divination where a book is opened at random and the words on the page are taken as insight for the moment. So it's a bit like tarot cards, but we use a book instead. So you're gonna cool. You are gonna hold a question quietly in your mind while I do the reading. Once we're done, you'll reveal the question and we'll talk about what came up. Now, before we begin, you'll get to choose the book. So I've got an orthography book, which is an illustrated guide to bird lore and symbolism, or a floriography book, which is an illustrated guide to Victorian language of flowers. I have a feeling what you're gonna choose, but I'm gonna make it.

Zoe 51:07

You know, I'm floriography obsessed. So yes, I'm gonna go floriography, of course. And I keep saying Which floriography book do you have?

Julia 51:15

So this is, and I keep saying it's so I have that book. Ornithography for birds, and I never say that right because I have that book. The ornithography for book I have I do. Let's see which floreography book you have. Oh, I have that too. Ladies and gentlemen, Kindred. Yeah, yes, kindred. Yeah, she's got the same book, no surprise.

Zoe 51:35

Yeah, of course. Of course, there.

Julia 51:37

Yes. All right, so since we're gonna reveal the question, you know, I'm I always tell people like, don't make it like some very serious question that you're afraid to talk about. Right?

Zoe 51:47

Well, I have something, I have something going on in my life right now that I'm trying to decide. So I'm gonna I'm gonna use this as that kind of answer. That moment.

Julia 51:57

All right, so you're gonna hold that question in your head. I'm gonna take a moment, I'm gonna open the book and we'll reveal. So let me know when you're ready. Okay, I'm ready. Okay. Okay, you got the magnolia. Oh, interesting. And the meaning of the magnolia is dignity. The magnolia tree exudes dignity with its tall and hardy structure, its rich waxy leaves, and its large white blossoms. Its flowers are often associated with the American South, where the tree grows to magnificent heights and endures scorching summers. You will pair it with a belladonna to ask a friend to keep your secret, olive as a reminder to maintain your dignity in difficult situations.

Zoe 52:47

Interesting. Okay.

Julia 52:48

Did that reveal anything for you?

Zoe 52:51

I don't know. I mean, so we are trying to move the studio and we are deciding between two potential spaces. And one is like a ground floor storefront type space, which kind of changes the feeling of our business. And so I'm trying to decide if that's the direction that I want to go, like if it's possible to maintain like the same kind of feeling in a place that's more like street facing. Yeah. Um, and I do think there are ways to do that, but I'm, you know, I'm trying to figure it out. And we are a little bit under the gun because we need to make a decision in like the next 24 to 48 hours and move forward with whichever one we're gonna go with. And so this has been like what I've been like obsessing about. I had a friend pull cards for me yesterday to try to give me this answer, and the cards were very wishy-washy. Like it could they could have been interpreted in a few different ways that would have like I could get any answer I was looking for.

Julia 54:04

Yeah. Here's my interpretation. I feel like not that you asked me. No, I I would love to hear your interpretation. Given our entire conversation and the passion that you have for creating these welcome spaces that feel that feel like it can hold everything that you're offering and that what the client is offering and dignity is a huge part of visibility. It's a huge part of the kind of clients that are coming to see you. I think that we want the space that's gonna support that vibe and that environment. And I have the feeling that whatever space you choose, that environment's not gonna change.

Zoe 54:54

I appreciate that. That's very kind. We're gonna try hard. It's just one of those things where like for the longest time we couldn't find anywhere to move to. Yeah. And so to have two spaces is a great problem to have, but it's also like we did not expect to be in this situation. So we're just we're uh it's a hard, it's a hard decision.

Julia 55:17

Well, I wish you the best of luck with that. I like I said, I think what whatever space you choose, I think the vibe's gonna be the same. I think that I hope so. Yeah, yeah. Whatever, whatever space you choose will be the right space. That that much I know. Zoe, thank you so much for being here.

Zoe 55:33

Thank you for having me. This was so fun. This was so fun.

Julia 55:36

And uh for sure. Hold on. Before I let you go, please tell people how they can find you.

Zoe 55:45

Oh, you can find me on Instagram at Zoe Bean Tattoo, and you can find the studio at keepsakestudios nj on Instagram, and our website is keepsakestudiosnj.com. Yeah, that's generally the best way to get in touch.

Julia 56:01

Super. I will also put this in the show notes, everyone. Zoe, thank you so much for being here. And uh yes, you will for sure. Bye. Agecraft after dark is written, produced, and edited by me, Julia Granacki. Theme music provided by Mondo Music. Have a question or a spooky story? I want to hear it. Leave me a message at speakpipe.com forward slash agecraft, and you might just hear yourself on the show. For more agecraft content, join me on Substack at agecraft.substack.com. And if you want to work with me and learn more about all of the things, head over to julia gwellness.com. Thanks for listening. Remember, visibility is activism, and until next time, stay curious, stay a little haunted, and I'll see you in the dark.